COP 9

[skang]

Dear All

As you know my husband has been under investigation under the above for quie some time.
HMRC wrote advising of how to settle the tax affairs of him and his ltd company, however the investigation itself is ongoing???

They say this is becuase they opened the investigation into him and his dad as one investigation rather than two seperate ones.

A) does it matter if the investigation is still ongoing if they are happy that his tax affairs are in order ( I say no, as his apsect of the investigation is clear)
b) How can I tell if they opened one joint investigation rather than two seperate ones??

[pawncob]

They can't open one investigation into two people, it's physically (and legally) impossible.
They may have opened one investigation into the company and included both directors, but this would be a company investigation.
Yes it does matter. Until there is a closure letter the investigation remains live.

[skang]

well my husband was a director of his own business and his dad ran a totally seperate business, they seem to think the cases are linked becuase his dad gifted us a house, and they think he legally owns it. Which he doesnt as they accepted it was a gift in our disclousre report.. .. what annoys me is MRs Mary King the techinical manager for COP 9 was adimant they can, as they seem to think he is still connected even though they have accepted that in his disclosure report that they accepted it states he had nothing to do with his father business. I have no money to employ someone to get advice from as we spent it all paying PWC thousands upon thousands to not get the job done properly . . .can I push them or apply to the ombudsman for the case to be closed, I have several letters saying they will be closing the case, conluding the case, will be closing the investigation etc etc and Mrs King swore blind they can open an investigation into more than one person . . im at a total loss and stuck what to do, im already on anti-depressants becuase of the stress and even after complaining I am not getting anywhere.

Is there anything in their manuals that I can use against them
Any help much appreciated

[skang]

They also have stated in writing that under COP 9 they do not issue closure notices, but send a letter stating the investigation is completed.

[scottie2]

Hi skang-I empathise with your situation. It sounds from your posting that a disclosure report was prepared and submitted and covered the affairs of your husband and the business he ran. If your father-in -law was under enquiry this would be the subject of a separate enquiry. If HMRC has now accepted the contents of the your husband's disclosure report they should close the enquiry down. They may well have concerns that the enquiries are linked, however if the common issue, namely the house that was gifted has been dealt with satisfactorily, there does not appear to be any reason why the enquiry should not be concluded. HMRC may have some concerns that there are further issues in your father-in-law's affairs that may have a bearing on your husband's. Has the enquiry into your father in law been concluded? I think we will need a bit more information, for example, have all of the other issues covered in the COP9 report been accepted by HMRC and tax paid, before I can offer definitive advice. In the interim, there are measures that can be taken, for example, writing to the inspector's group leader and request that he/she intervenes, or at least explain why the enquiry is dragging on. They should also be asked to comment on the point you make about the enquiry into your husband and father-in -law being run as one enquiry as they certainly cannot do this. I deal with COP9 enquiries a great deal and would be happy to offer further advice if you need it. I hope you get this matter resolved as it is clearly causing you a great deal of anxiety. manoj.anand@wlhtax.co.uk

[skang]

Thank you scottie

THe investigation into my father is still ongoing, however the one into my husband as far as I was concerned has been sorted in full, with in fact HMRC owing him and his company £15k !!!!, I have various letters from Trevor Kilminster the inspector clearly stating that they will be closing the investigation once penalties/liabilities have been sorted and paid. I have a fax from Neil Turner as Kilminster is absent confirming that he understands the case is closed but is just awaiting confirmation from Trevor.
Yet when we speak to Mrs King, the techinical person, she insists very aggressivly that is isnt.

I have faxed a letter of complaint, stating that if they seem to think Paul is still under investigation for fraud they detail why, (when I spoke with Mrs King all she would say is well we cant discuss your fathers side with you) . .dont see how when you say it links with Paul . . . in my mind they are doing this in the hope to bully us into offering them our house, which is ultimately always been their main focal point. Thats only relevant at the end of the day if they file for bankruptcy against my father in law, and even then its up to the official receiver.

[scottie2]

Thanks for responding skang. It sounds as if one arm of HMRC doesn't know what the other is doing and vice versa. HMRC may think there is more of a connection-perhaps the businesses are similar or there is a trading relationship between the two entities. See what response you get to your complaint letter and place a further posting so further advice can be offered. I also presume that Mrs King is the inspector dealing with your father-in law's affairs-if so, because of confidentiality, she will not be able to share any details of his enquiry with you, however by the same token she should not be expressing any opinion on your husband's enquiry. Regards

[skang]

Yes the business's were similar, however I would have thought it still resolved becuase they accepted his disclosure report which basically says he had nothing to do with his fathers business and vice versa.
Mrs King is the "technical Manager" i think her title was for COP 9, and is Trevor Kilminster manager for COP9.
Trevor Kilminster is the actual inspector and yes he is conducting the investigation for both parties which myself I would have thought be a conflict of interest.
Its driving me up the wall, all we want to do is move on with our lives and start being normal again.
I have run out of energy nearly to keep fighting them, they really are a law untoo themselves.

The reason they are speaking with me is becuase my husband has given them permission to speak to me, as I am now acting on his behalf as we cannot afford professional advise anymore. I understand they cant tell me about my father in laws case, but mmy argument is if they want to tie my husband into that case or the apparent one case, then they should tell me why he is still under investigation.

Thankyou for all your help though and I will keep you posted.

[skang]

Ok So I now have a response to my complaint and it seems what they are saying is that initially they opened one COP9 into both paul and his father, as initially they did think the two were connected, by means of the same business and on pauls mortgage application he had put down that he owned a business that actually his father owned (on tha advise of the mortgage company in order to get teh self certified mortgage)

So the response is this:

The original investigation opened up into your tax affairs and those of Interwell contractors ltd and other parties is under COP9. A formal closure notice does not apply in investigations under COP9. only under COP 11 and this is not in your case.
I can however confirm for the investigation under COP 9 the enquiries into those aspects only relating to your personal tax affairs and those of interwell contractors ltd have been concluded

So I guess I can assume then this is the matter closed in light of the above??

[wamstax]

Yes as you have written confirmation that the enquiry is closed.

the extract from the COP9 states - note that it is my underlining:-

Concluding the investigation
If our investigation finds nothing wrong with your tax affairs, we will let you know that our investigation has finishedIf we find something wrong and you have made a full disclosure, we will accept a money settlement. So if you make a full confession in response to `Hansard', we will not seek to prosecute you even if we consider that you have committed serious tax fraud.

When seeking a money settlement we will try to reach an agreed figure with you covering the amount of tax, interest and penalties we believe are due. We will only suggest adjustments that we consider to be reasonable in the light of the information we hold. You should ask us to explain if you do not understand any of the figures we may propose.

If we cannot reach agreement we may seek to determine formally the tax, interest and penalties we consider appropriate.

We can use the information or documents that you provided during the investigation in any proceedings to determine your liability to tax, interest and penalties.

Where there have been errors or omissions in your accounts or tax returns we will ask you to sign a Certificate of Full Disclosure confirming that you have now declared all your taxable income, gains and other duties. We will not ask for a certificate if the investigation showed nothing wrong.

We will take a very serious view if you sign a Certificate of Full Disclosure you know to be false. You should consider the certificate very carefully before signing it. If you sign a certificate you know is false, you may be liable to prosecution.

You should always make sure you understand what, if anything, was wrong with your accounts or tax returns. You should ask your professional adviser or us what you need to do to make sure you get them right in the future.

So I hope that this helps you