Self Employed Overnight Subsistence

[roundthebend]

Sorry … perhaps I have not made myself clear and thanks again for such an in depth response.

Presently (and only since last September) we spend a month at base manufacturing and then around a month on the road selling.

Base is Home BTW, which is a 2 berth caravan behind a pub … not ideal and certainly not what we have been used to, but home nonetheless. When on the road we have been mainly sleeping rough to utilise the revenue to develop the business and outlet base as fast as we can.

All I am now saying is that instead of doing the above for say 6 months, we do it for say 12 months. Obviously as we are travelling further it would make sense to manufacture at base for 2 months say and then spend 2 months on the road. (as opposed to 1 month of each).

Obviously we are only claiming for overnight accommodation and an evening meal while we are away from home.

[roundthebend]

sorry ... posted response half finished ... just finishing the rest ....

[roundthebend]

There does seem to be an issue here about our standard of living and perhaps I have confused and compounded matters by making quips. If so then I apologise.

The simple facts are:

In order to get the business back off the ground I was prepared to live like a pauper (whilst on the road acting as a Sales Agent). In order to do this I still needed to spend an additional £70 per week as a business expense.

I have now decided that it is too unbearable to live like a peasant (whilst on the road acting as a Sales Agent) and instead I will live like a normal Human Being working away from home. This will mean that getting the business back off the ground will take longer as the business expenditure will be greater.

Essentially I am not enjoying a better standard of living than I am in the UK as I am still living in the UK with the same standard of living. What I am doing is enjoying better working conditions than I have for the past few months. As a penalty for this it will take longer for me to improve my standard of living as it will take longer to develop the business.

An interesting question has just entered my mind although I think it should be left rhetorical …

“Would HMRC tell me that I am being unreasonable staying in a hotel whilst away on business and insist that I live on the side of the road instead?”

[mullet]

“Would HMRC tell me that I am being unreasonable staying in a hotel whilst away on business and insist that I live on the side of the road instead?”

Of course not. In theory HMRC would not object to a proven business trip of 2 months' duration, but as soon as you introduce occasional or regular days off then there is an inevitable duality of purpose. And no, HMRC would not expect you to work 12 hours per day for 2 months solid.

If the primary reason for the trip was business (and could be so proven) and you worked 5 days per week, then logically you would claim for travel plus 4 x nights and 4 x evening meals per week. Or maybe 5 of each. And with an appropriate adjustment for private motoring.

[roundthebend]

Thank you sincerely msp for your time and advice ... It has been most helpful. At least I may now re-consider the immediate business direction with a better knowledge and understanding of the boundaries and limitations, at least as far as HMRC are concerned. There are still many other boundaries and obstacles to overcome but hey that's life! ... At least the journey back to success will be a little sweeter now that I have begun to think outside of the box.

Kindest and Thanks Again

I will check back on this post for a few days just in case either you or anyone else has any further or conflicting thoughts

[Incredulum]

Yes I do. I guess you are being so aggressive towards me because I have picked up on the benefits angle. I don't think this thread has anything to do with tax at all. Least of all the £1 per day of tax relief that you are not getting for lunch which you described a "major blow".

Presumably your benefits are based on your declared taxable profits. So if you want to keep claiming benefits you have to keep your taxable profits below a certain level (as mentioned previously it's a bit difficult to find out this level but it seems to be about 17k).

I think that if you're making hotel claims that are borderline for tax purposes, and these claims also bring you into the benefits regime, that you may well sailing close enough to the wind to risk prosecution for benefits fraud.

I'm not expecting grateful thanks from you for my post. Something doesn't make sense in your business plan.

[roundthebend]

Hi again Incredulum and I’m sorry if you feel I am being aggressive towards you. I would say there is a huge difference between aggression and skirting over and making light of persistent inflammatory remarks, which are both unhelpful and irrelevant. If my undertstanding is correct this is a “Tax Tips” forum and not a “Moral Highground” forum.

I have no intention of spending the day either justifying myself to you or giving you detailed business plans and reciting my adequate knowledge of Profit and Loss and Cash Flow Statements … amusingly though my 14 year career at middle management level was in an accounts department. I am here because I am not an Accountant, nor can I presently afford one. Had I wanted “business advice” however, I would have gone to a “Business Forum” and quite possibly provided a full and concise business plan.

Yesterday you claimed to know nothing about benefits and yet today you know sufficient to enable you to make broad sweeping statements bordering on accusations that I may be a criminal. Having regard specifically to the Working Tax Credits and Housing Benefit, I have been transparent right from my opening post. For your information though Working Tax Credits are awarded on a sliding scale based on earnings. The higher bracket being £17K as you have already researched, the lower bracket being zero. At zero you are awarded £86 per week for a “couple”.

I have no intentions of making hotel claims that are borderline for tax purposes and should you elect to read the words in this entire thread, rather than reading between the lines, then I’m sure you will have a more balanced view of my intentions. Although, as I have already said, I owe you no explanations I will afford you this:

As a direct result of the downturn in the economy I lost everything I had worked for my entire life and my business was stripped back to nothing. I did not have any capital to regenerate by business and it is therefore a slow process which also involves living a most uncomfortable lifestyle, as anyone on £44 per week plus £22.50 housing benefit will tell you.

I will also offer you the knowledge that I now hate the business and would go back to working for someone else tomorrow. My partner however has adult ADHD and is totally unemployable. We have been together for 14 years 24/7 and have never had a cross word. Since we lost everything and I have been trying to get the business back on track however, there has not been a week go by that I haven’t contemplated suicide. We argue constantly and as my user name suggests I am presently mentally unstable to which end I am taking anti-depressants. The anti-depressants slow my brain which is quite probably why my posts have not been as coherent and precise as I would have liked.

Thanks to msp (who also btw quite rightly, questioned my intentions several times) I am now fairly confident that I am not doing anything illegal in the eyes of HMRC. As you are aware I am also returning to this thread in the event that there may be opposing opinions or perhaps even an overriding fact that msp has not considered. I’m sure you will also be delighted to learn that, despite my not being of totally sound mind at the moment, I have been sufficiently diligent to start making enquiries with relevant benefits advisors.

Should you wish to respond further Incredulum, I shall afford you the courtesy of one last reply so please ensure that your response is precise and full.