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Where Taxpayers and Advisers Meet

form 17 HMRC

petergibbinson
Posts:159
Joined:Wed Aug 06, 2008 3:53 pm
form 17 HMRC

Postby petergibbinson » Mon Feb 07, 2022 11:44 am

Hi - informed the HMRC via form 17 of change in beneficial ownership (99% to my wife 1% to me) - deed of trust set up with a solicitor to change for joint to tenants in common and % allocation on that deed.
Sent that to the HMRC (the day after it was set up) and got a proof of postage - sent a clear letter asking for confirmation of receipt of the form 17 and % allocations.. not a word back.
So re sent it again recorded delivery - signed for (and proof of postage again) - and again another letter saying this is the second time of sending please confirm by return... nothing back still (and this was April of 2021..) - not really a lot more I can do - I assume the proof of postage and photocopies I took would suffice in case of a challenge? Pretty shocking service though to be honest.

Secondly if I want to change back to 50:50 ownership (by a deed of trust/variation again) - do I need to re submit a form 17 ? or would the fact it would be changed to 50:50, and that's the default position mean that a form 17 was not necessary at that point?

AGoodman
Posts:1738
Joined:Fri May 16, 2014 3:47 pm

Re: form 17 HMRC

Postby AGoodman » Mon Feb 07, 2022 12:28 pm

It's all you can do but, more importantly, it's all you need to do. HMRC might get round to your letter later this year.

If you switch back to 50:50 the form 17 becomes invalid so falls away.

bd6759
Posts:4262
Joined:Sat Feb 01, 2014 3:26 pm

Re: form 17 HMRC

Postby bd6759 » Mon Feb 07, 2022 5:55 pm

You have done everything that is required of you.

If you wish to be taxed on your share, s837 ITA 2007 requires you to make a declaration to that effect and give notice to HMRC that a declaration has been made. The notice must be in the form required by HMRC (the Form 17)
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2007/3/section/837
(3)The declaration has effect only if notice of it is given to an officer of Revenue and Customs—
(a)in such form and manner as the Commissioners for Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs may prescribe, and
(b)within the period of 60 days beginning with the date of the declaration.

s115 TMA 1970 confirms that notice may given by post.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1970/9/section/115
(2)Any notice or other document to be given, sent, served or delivered under the Taxes Acts may be served by post, ...

And the Interpretation Act 1978 covers service by post. As long as you can show that you sent the form to the correct address and properly paid for, it is deemed to have been delivered in the ordinary course of post: in the case of signed for the ordinary course is next day.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1978/30/section/7
7References to service by post.
Where an Act authorises or requires any document to be served by post (whether the expression “serve” or the expression “give” or “send” or any other expression is used) then, unless the contrary intention appears, the service is deemed to be effected by properly addressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the document and, unless the contrary is proved, to have been effected at the time at which the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post.


If the beneficial ownership changes in any way, the form 17 becomes ineffective. The default 50/50 will apply from the date of change unless a new notice is given.

etf
Posts:1278
Joined:Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:25 pm

Re: form 17 HMRC

Postby etf » Fri Feb 18, 2022 7:04 pm

In around 2010 HMRC lost three copies of the same letter that I sent them (the third sent by recorded delivery) and only when I self combusted did they admit to finding the first copy. Dealing with them can be very frustrating.

If you believe statistics (see below) 43% of post is responded to within 15 days (my suspicion is the remaining 57% takes 5 years).

Performance in answering calls and responding to post in 2020–21 was well below the levels in each of the three previous years.

By the fourth quarter of 2020–21, the average time callers spent queuing to speak to an adviser in HMRC was over 15 minutes (compared to less than 5 minutes in 2017–18), and just 43% of post was responded to in 15 days (81% in 2017–18).


PS Have to admit I use your name whenever I need to refer back to that thread with Peter D v Incredulum and the infamous DTE brief....Taxationweb at its very best...sadly they don't seem to post often/at all now.

maths
Posts:8507
Joined:Wed Aug 06, 2008 3:25 pm

Re: form 17 HMRC

Postby maths » Fri Feb 18, 2022 8:05 pm

ETF

You're mention of the DTE Brief brings back bad memories !! I do recall having an uphill struggle to convince all that the Brief was incorrect.

I remember the discussions well and, like you, wonder what happened to Peter D and Incredulum.

That must be at least a decade ago and here I am still posting; how sad is that???

maths
Posts:8507
Joined:Wed Aug 06, 2008 3:25 pm

Re: form 17 HMRC

Postby maths » Fri Feb 18, 2022 8:49 pm

TMA 1970 s115 applies to service etc by HMRC not, I believe, service etc by a taxpayer (on HMRC).

etf
Posts:1278
Joined:Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:25 pm

Re: form 17 HMRC

Postby etf » Fri Feb 18, 2022 9:02 pm

I looked back at one of those threads after my post and had tears of laughter in my eyes. Just when you thought Incredulum had landed the killer blow, Peter D would make another point...he was like a weeble who refused to go down even when a battle had been lost. Whilst you probably wouldn't want to rely on Peter, I admired his staying power and he did help the thread as things had to be explained in greater detail.

I also saw posts from Mullet and AvocadoK who are blasts from the past.

Keep up the good work Maths.

etf
Posts:1278
Joined:Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:25 pm

Re: form 17 HMRC

Postby etf » Fri Feb 18, 2022 9:11 pm

Like a Monty Python sketch:


maths

Re: That DTE brief s58 TCGA; s222(7) TCGA etc.
Postby maths » Wed Apr 07, 2010 12:55 pm

It has always been very clear in my opinion that the DTE Brief was incorrect. The wording of s222(7) TCGA 1992 is clear.


Peter D

Re: That DTE brief s58 TCGA; s222(7) TCGA etc.
Postby Peter D » Wed Apr 07, 2010 2:26 pm

That is with regard to Main residence relief and transfer of same which is not the scenario that you were dealing with. As I said I await clarification form HMRC, well I live in hope. Regards Peter


Incredulum

Re: That DTE brief s58 TCGA; s222(7) TCGA etc.
Postby Incredulum » Wed Apr 07, 2010 2:40 pm

Sometimes I think you're completely insane. This is exactly the scenario we have been dealing with for 5 pages, and more.


What's the scenario you think you're dealing with?

Actually, I don't care. The only person who disagreed with me was you - quoting DTE - and they have confirmed they were wrong, making you, by implication, wrong also.

As Maths says, 222 is very clearly worded, only you and DTE have been able to misunderstand it.

maths
Posts:8507
Joined:Wed Aug 06, 2008 3:25 pm

Re: form 17 HMRC

Postby maths » Fri Feb 18, 2022 9:16 pm

Yes, they were good and amusing times. Your extract brought it all back and made me smile.

I'm beginning to flag and don't post as often as in the good old days.

Think I'll give up at 9,000 posts

bd6759
Posts:4262
Joined:Sat Feb 01, 2014 3:26 pm

Re: form 17 HMRC

Postby bd6759 » Sat Feb 19, 2022 2:32 am

TMA 1970 s115 applies to service etc by HMRC not, I believe, service etc by a taxpayer (on HMRC).
Not correct. The bit I quoted refers to any document, the bit after only applies to HMRC.


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