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Where Taxpayers and Advisers Meet

Inland revenue and CASH REGISTERS!!(TILL ROLLS)

jakedamuss
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2013 11:51 pm

Inland revenue and CASH REGISTERS!!(TILL ROLLS)

Postby jakedamuss » Fri Feb 28, 2014 4:54 pm

Hi all i need some advice please. I recently had a letter from inland revenue stating that they would like to view my business records at my accountants office. After they had viewed the books from my accountant they wanted to meet with me to see how i run my business on a daily business and how i keep records. After the short meeting they left quite happy but today 5 weeks later i received a call from my accountant saying that they want me to keep the whole journal of the till roll on a daily basis i already keep a Z report daily, to keep a whole journal of the till role would be a nigthmare space wise. So my question is do i have to keep the whole journal or will a Z report do??

Any advice would be appreciated

pawncob
Posts: 4342
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2008 4:06 pm
Location: West Sussex

Re: Inland revenue and CASH REGISTERS!!(TILL ROLLS)

Postby pawncob » Fri Feb 28, 2014 6:03 pm

The Z total is just that. Keeping daily till rolls doesn't prove anything except that the Z is correct. I'd ask HMRC why they want this. (They won't be able to give an answer other than "It's part of the trading records")
With a pinch of salt take what I say, but don't exceed your RDA

jakedamuss
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2013 11:51 pm

Re: Inland revenue and CASH REGISTERS!!(TILL ROLLS)

Postby jakedamuss » Fri Feb 28, 2014 10:18 pm

They want a meeting with me mid march to discuss the matter. Im confused im keeping the Z report, but do i have to keep the the whole days journal? By law if inland revenue say i have to keep the whole till roll do i have too?

bd6759
Posts: 3095
Joined: Sat Feb 01, 2014 3:26 pm

Re: Inland revenue and CASH REGISTERS!!(TILL ROLLS)

Postby bd6759 » Fri Feb 28, 2014 10:57 pm

The law requires you keep a record of all sales.

TMA 1970
12B(3) In the case of a person carrying on a trade, profession or business alone or in partnership–
(a)the records required to be kept and preserved under subsection (1) or (2A) above shall include records of the following, namely–
(i)all amounts received and expended in the course of the trade, profession or business and the matters in respect of which the receipts and expenditure take place, and
(ii)in the case of a trade involving dealing in goods, all sales and purchases of goods made in the course of the trade;

Does your till allow you download and keep an electronic record? That would be sufficient.

jakedamuss
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2013 11:51 pm

Re: Inland revenue and CASH REGISTERS!!(TILL ROLLS)

Postby jakedamuss » Sat Mar 01, 2014 12:12 am

Hi my business is a takeaway. So can anybody advise me do I have to keep full till roll or z report sufficient.
Also is there a law stating that one has to keep full till roll. More advice greatly appreciated.

wamstax
Posts: 1869
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2008 3:39 pm
Location: Operate Nationally but based in Aberdeen
Contact:

Re: Inland revenue and CASH REGISTERS!!(TILL ROLLS)

Postby wamstax » Sat Mar 01, 2014 1:36 am

Let us put it this way..... if you are recording all your sales fully and correctly then retaining the full till roll would work to your advantage. However it you are ever subjected to an enquiry/compliance check then the HMRC Officers are likely to say that from then on you should retain the full roll as it records contemporaneously each sale as it is made which is what they will advance is exactly what you should be retaining. Of course the act doesn't say that as all it says is that the trader will maintain such records as are necessary to ensure that he can prepare and complete and correct tax return.
regards and hope this helps
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wamstax
Posts: 1869
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2008 3:39 pm
Location: Operate Nationally but based in Aberdeen
Contact:

Re: Inland revenue and CASH REGISTERS!!(TILL ROLLS)

Postby wamstax » Sat Mar 01, 2014 1:42 am

bd is quite correct in what is quoted however as you can read it is ambiguous for it says "all amounts received and expended in the course of the trade",
it does not say that you have to keep a record of each individual sale

and then in the case of goods for sale "all sales and purchases of goods made in the course of the trade" so that it would in my view be equally tenable to argue that the Z slip provides such a record.

Of course others will disagree and if HMRC officer says that you have to maintain the full list then of course if you don't there could be a suspicion that you do not retain the full listings for a sneaky /bent purpose
regards and hope this helps
http://www.wamstaxltd.com
Operates Nationally with competitive costs
and email and phone contact can be obtained from website

wamstax
Posts: 1869
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2008 3:39 pm
Location: Operate Nationally but based in Aberdeen
Contact:

Re: Inland revenue and CASH REGISTERS!!(TILL ROLLS)

Postby wamstax » Sat Mar 01, 2014 1:43 am

I would argue that the terms are in the plural as any years records will have more than one days records of total sales
regards and hope this helps
http://www.wamstaxltd.com
Operates Nationally with competitive costs
and email and phone contact can be obtained from website

jakedamuss
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2013 11:51 pm

Re: Inland revenue and CASH REGISTERS!!(TILL ROLLS)

Postby jakedamuss » Sun Mar 02, 2014 12:17 pm

Hi thanx for the replies. So if they tell me i have to keep the full till roll i can argue that with

TMA 1970
12B(3) In the case of a person carrying on a trade, profession or business alone or in partnership–
(a)the records required to be kept and preserved under subsection (1) or (2A) above shall include records of the following, namely–
(i)all amounts received and expended in the course of the trade, profession or business and the matters in respect of which the receipts and expenditure take place, and
(ii)in the case of a trade involving dealing in goods, all sales and purchases of goods made in the course of the trade;

As different staff are using the till each one is always making mistakes and cancelling sales, so there will be lots of mistakes on the till roll which if they ever took a look they will make assumptions as to not recording sales :?:

wamstax
Posts: 1869
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2008 3:39 pm
Location: Operate Nationally but based in Aberdeen
Contact:

Re: Inland revenue and CASH REGISTERS!!(TILL ROLLS)

Postby wamstax » Sun Mar 02, 2014 12:36 pm

Yes BUT if different people are using the till and making mistakes and deleting sales why wouldn't you want to be keeping the evidence of that? Clearly the Z till tails would have loads of detail on them that would suggest that there were loads of "No Sales" or other such entries that would be even more difficult to argue.

If the tills are being used to record all sales then it would be desirable to retain all till rolls (as opposed to Z till tails).

Believe me when I say that it is far easier to tell the whole story if you have all the contemporaneous evidence and if you are fiddling there are many other ways for HMRC to catch you than just losing the till rolls
regards and hope this helps
http://www.wamstaxltd.com
Operates Nationally with competitive costs
and email and phone contact can be obtained from website


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