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Where Taxpayers and Advisers Meet

CGT on the sale of physical gold and the 30 day rule

Fraser217
Posts:6
Joined:Wed Apr 10, 2024 6:37 pm
Re: CGT on the sale of physical gold and the 30 day rule

Postby Fraser217 » Mon Jun 17, 2024 10:35 pm

Maths explained it clearly 13 years ago.

S104(3) does not say that.

Please refer to TCGA92/S104(3) :
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1992/12/section/104/enacted :
"shares or securities of a company shall not be treated as being of the same class unless they are so treated by the practice of a recognised stock exchange or would be so treated if dealt with on a recognised stock exchange."

And also "CG50203 - Definitions: different classes of share" :
https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/capital-gains-manual/cg50203
which quotes the above legislation :
"TCGA92/S104(3) provides `shares or securities of a company shall not be treated as being of the same class unless they are so treated by the practice of a recognised stock exchange or would be so treated if dealt with on a recognised stock exchange’.
A stock exchange lists shares or securities of the same class in a single listing. It is a question of fact whether the rules of a recognised stock exchange would list different types of share separately. If the shares are listed on a recognised stock exchange you should follow the practice of that stock exchange. If the shares are not listed you will need to consider the terms of the shares and apply stock exchange criteria to them. As a general rule, a stock exchange will treat shares as being of different classes, and list them separately, if they have different rights or other features which would affect their value. For example, partly paid shares would not be regarded as being of the same class as fully paid shares, see CG50207+. However, also see CG50207 if the balance of the subscription price is payable within six months of the issue of the shares."

I would agree with Maths interpretation personally but just wonder how HMRC would interpret it. I have indeed wrote to them but several weeks passed now, no reply yet.

bd6759
Posts:4323
Joined:Sat Feb 01, 2014 3:26 pm

Re: CGT on the sale of physical gold and the 30 day rule

Postby bd6759 » Tue Jun 18, 2024 3:50 pm

Try here for the current version:
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1992/12/section/104

But it still doesn’t say what you said it says.

It specifically refers to “Shares and securities of a company”, and not to fungible assets in general. The other stuff you copied and pasted also refers to company shares.

Fraser217
Posts:6
Joined:Wed Apr 10, 2024 6:37 pm

Re: CGT on the sale of physical gold and the 30 day rule

Postby Fraser217 » Tue Jun 18, 2024 7:11 pm

Try here for the current version:
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1992/12/section/104

But it still doesn’t say what you said it says.

It specifically refers to “Shares and securities of a company”, and not to fungible assets in general. The other stuff you copied and pasted also refers to company shares.

Please re-visit the thread :
https://www.taxationweb.co.uk/forum/capital-gains-on-bullion-stored-in-vault-t51398.html

Particularly note :
https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/capital-gains-manual/cg13370
"Note that the share identification rules apply to all assets that usually are dealt in without having to identify the individual asset. See CG51500."

and

https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/capital-gains-manual/cg51500
"The issue does not just arise with shares but with any assets that are not distinguishable from each other or are dealt with as if they are. The share identification rules therefore also apply to such assets TCGA92/S104(1)(3)(ii). Se CG11820."

and Maths posts earlier in this thread :
"Collich, not so.
S 106A TCGA 1992 contains the "30 day rule" relating to "securities".
S 104 defines the term "securities". More specifically subsection (3) provides that "securities" means:
"....and any other assets where they are of a nature to be dealt in without identifying the particular assets disposed of or acquired....".
In essence, assets which may not be separately identifiable.
The term "fungible assets" extends to, inter alia, shares, securities and foreign currency."

The legislation link you have given says exactly the same thing as I have quoted in my post above.

bd6759
Posts:4323
Joined:Sat Feb 01, 2014 3:26 pm

Re: CGT on the sale of physical gold and the 30 day rule

Postby bd6759 » Wed Jun 19, 2024 12:49 pm

The term "fungible assets" extends to, inter alia, shares, securities and foreign currency."
The converse is not true. The term “Shares and securities of a company” does not extend to “ all fungible assets”

All squares are quadrilaterals, but not all quadrilaterals are squares.

The law you are looking at applies ONLY to shares and securities of a company

Fraser217
Posts:6
Joined:Wed Apr 10, 2024 6:37 pm

Re: CGT on the sale of physical gold and the 30 day rule

Postby Fraser217 » Wed Jun 19, 2024 3:10 pm

The term "fungible assets" extends to, inter alia, shares, securities and foreign currency."
The converse is not true. The term “Shares and securities of a company” does not extend to “ all fungible assets”

All squares are quadrilaterals, but not all quadrilaterals are squares.

The law you are looking at applies ONLY to shares and securities of a company

That's not really in the spirit of the legislation for Section 104 pooling. This legislation is simply a reasonable way to deal with assets not differentiable from one another (even if they are serial numbered), ie. "assets that usually are dealt in without having to identify the individual asset" (CG13370) - grams of gold held on BullionVault being a good example, or identical 10g gold bars from the same manufacturer such as Pamp or Umicore. Royal Mint coins such as silver and gold Britannia's wouldn't come into it as they are exempt from CGT. I think you are maybe over-thinking things a little.

bd6759
Posts:4323
Joined:Sat Feb 01, 2014 3:26 pm

Re: CGT on the sale of physical gold and the 30 day rule

Postby bd6759 » Thu Jun 20, 2024 12:32 am

I’m not sure what point you are trying to make.

Gold is pooled regardless of where it is stored.

S104(3) does not apply to gold, but that doesn’t mean the pooling rules don’t apply.


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