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Where Taxpayers and Advisers Meet

NRCGT return

etf
Posts:798
Joined:Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:25 pm
Re: NRCGT return

Postby etf » Tue Jun 22, 2021 9:14 am

Please IGNORE the HMRC advice detailed in my earlier post dated 27 May 12.41 edition. Having been given exactly the same advice by another HMRC CGT specialist yesterday their suggested process once again failed. I decided to speak with the specific self assessment office who advised me the filing has to be made by letter. HMRC's staff training appears very poor/non existent in this area.

etf
Posts:798
Joined:Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:25 pm

Re: NRCGT return

Postby etf » Tue Nov 02, 2021 9:41 am

My observation copied below from January 2017 appears to have been on the money following the red text budget announcement:

For disposals of UK residential property completed on and after 6 April 2020 UK tax residents have had to report the gain to HMRC, and pay the CGT due, within 30 days of completion. Non-UK tax residents have been obliged to report any disposals of any UK property or land (residential or commercial) and pay any CGT due within the same time limits.

The Autumn Budget has changed that. For disposals that complete on or after 27 October 2021 the reporting and payment deadline will be 60 days after the completion date. Relevant disposals that completed before 27 October 2021 are still subject to the 30-day deadline.

The mandarins who think it is possible for someone in a forest in Borneo to complete a NRCGT return, without their records and within 30 days of the conveyance, in my humble opinion, need their heads testing.
Now I just need to convince everyone there is a difference between 3% successful NRCGT late filing appeals and (mind the gap)....................................................................................................................................................................................................................................99% successful appeals. If 3% and 99% are interchangeable as HMRC would have us believe perhaps I can re-write West Ham's history and claim they have won the Premier League on numerous occasions.

etf
Posts:798
Joined:Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:25 pm

Re: NRCGT return

Postby etf » Wed Nov 03, 2021 11:22 am

My favourite tax lecturer seems to agree that HMRC totally screwed up when introducing this reporting with her post copied below:

By Rebecca Benneyworth
27th Oct 2021 16:02
CGT reporting - worst, absolutely the worst thing ever.


Why is nobody holding HMRC's deceitful behaviour to account? If nobody investigates/challenges a situation where successful appeals fluctuate from 3% to (mind the gap)......................................................................................................................................................................................................................99% what is the point of The Taxpayers Charter? And as for HMRC's refusal to fully answer Freedom of Information requests (on data they have previously been happy to supply on a quarterly basis) that is just, in my opinion, plain criminal. Why are they permitted to cover-up their own dishonesty?

etf
Posts:798
Joined:Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:25 pm

Re: NRCGT return

Postby etf » Fri Nov 05, 2021 10:20 am

Even with my post-Covid impaired sense of smell, I worry that HMRC's handling of these 30 day CGT returns does not pass the sniff test on so many levels.

Out of the blue yesterday, I received an email from the Freedom of Information team confirming that some of the the annual information they had supplied in an earlier letter attachment dated 16 June providing information for the four quarters ended 31 March 2021 was incorrect.

To update the thread amongst other information supplied in the 16 June letter was the following:

Quarter ended 30 June 2020-No penalties charged as transitional period.
Quarter ended 30 September 2020-Unable to provide statistics due to Covid.
Quarter ended 31 December 2020-99% of late filing appeals accepted
Quarter ended 31 March 2021-98% of late filing appeals accepted

Please remember HMRC are supposed to treat taxpayers fairly and yet successful appeal rates in early quarters were as low as 3%. Come on Professional Bodies protect the public from these fluctuating appeal rates and at least put HMRC under some scrutiny and request an explanation of why they apparently ignore the Taxpayers Charter = breaking the law.

Yesterday's email confirmed that some of the data in the earlier letter had been made up as they had actually only processed 16,500 returns instead of the figure of 28,421 previously provided.

Now a new amazing statement from HMRC:

We can confirm we hold individual-level information on the timing of tax return submissions
and any late returns penalties levied. However, aggregate level information on all penalties
relating to returns submitted via the system for reporting Capital Gains Tax (CGT)-liable residential property disposals is not produced; and it would exceed the FOIA cost limit to provide this information.


I despair!

Lambs
Posts:1578
Joined:Wed Aug 06, 2008 3:15 pm

Re: NRCGT return

Postby Lambs » Fri Nov 05, 2021 11:08 am

E,

The claim that they do not aggregate such data is not credible. I simply do not believe that they have installed a system within the last few years, that does not do this automatically.

Did they not do this automatically for the original NR capital gains regime - on which the new one is based?

Regards,

Lambs

etf
Posts:798
Joined:Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:25 pm

Re: NRCGT return

Postby etf » Fri Nov 05, 2021 11:40 am

Lambs, that was my initial reaction; surely they have to produce accounts detailing the CGT late filing penalties which are levied and collected.

My gut feel since they advised me that the late CGT return filing statistics I have been requesting/obtaining for a number of years on a quarterly basis will no longer be released is they want to bury this information as deep under the ground as possible. I understand that viewpoint because some of the information provided appears very damaging.

Allowing HMRC to control the flow of information about their own behaviour, to me, is a bit like putting a bank robber in control of the security cameras. 'Sorry, Guv, the cameras were out of action when I robbed the bank last Sunday'.

Time for the Chartered Institute of Taxation and others to step up to the plate in my humble opinion (or for those decision makers in charge at HMRC to review everything properly and correct any mistakes in procedure that have been made).

etf
Posts:798
Joined:Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:25 pm

Re: NRCGT return

Postby etf » Fri Nov 05, 2021 1:08 pm

Did they not do this automatically for the original NR capital gains regime - on which the new one is based?
HMRC supplied the following which suggests the up to date cumulative figure is probably sooooooooo embarrassingly high that it must never be disclosed. 'Don't tell him/her that it is £20 million Pike!'
Great train robbery proceeds: £2.6 million.

HMRC NRCGT late filing penalties charged £4.633 million (to 30 June 2019).

Lambs
Posts:1578
Joined:Wed Aug 06, 2008 3:15 pm

Re: NRCGT return

Postby Lambs » Fri Nov 05, 2021 3:58 pm

The other question would be, if they don't compile such statistics, then what prompted the government to double the time limit from 30 days to 60 days? Maybe a disturbance in the Force..? Chancellor's latest Tarot reading?

etf
Posts:798
Joined:Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:25 pm

Re: NRCGT return

Postby etf » Fri Nov 05, 2021 5:03 pm

And I thought it was because Rishi is a big fan of Taxationweb's CGT forum. :D

Lambs, trust me they know what is going on. I established that Jon Thompson (before vacating his post) was responsible for ensuring that HMRC adhere to the Taxpayers Charter. 3% successful appeals to 99% successful appeals takes some explaining and nobody has offered a plausible reason for this huge swing. Other evidence I hold indicates that HMRC charged penalties and denied appeals early on with later appeals on the same grounds being allowed. That is not fair and does not follow the Taxpayers Charter i.e. if correct HMRC has broken the rules.

The relevant Professional Bodies are currently a bit like the ECB in the Yorkshire cricket case. They probably know they should investigate but for whatever reason haven't yet lit their gunpowder.

As always I'm very open for people to explain where they think where my argument is flawed, but as you can see from the FOI team's latest statement, there are Harry Potteresque goings on here.

etf
Posts:798
Joined:Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:25 pm

Re: NRCGT return

Postby etf » Fri Nov 05, 2021 5:16 pm

As an interesting aside JK Rowling went to school in our local town and the character Snape was apparently based on her science teacher who used to demonstrate medical treatments from days gone by at our village fetes...e.g how to saw someone's arm off...the kids used to love it and you could see he was a great fit for his better known alter-ego (bit off track and non-tax..but it is Friday afternoon).


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