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Where Taxpayers and Advisers Meet

NRCGT return

etf
Posts:1473
Joined:Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:25 pm
Re: NRCGT return

Postby etf » Tue Oct 22, 2024 11:14 am

Regular readers will recall I take issue with Sir Jim spouting nonsense about the Taxpayers Charter sitting at the heart of what HMRC do.

I'm even more agitated by the latest reincarnation of HMRC's Freedom of Information Office seemingly take a decision that information which is damaging to HMRC should be hidden at all costs. This first manifested itself with HMRC advising me that quarterly statistics regarding NRCGT penalties would no longer be made available. Understandable if you are seeking to show the public taxpayers are being treated fairly when in one quarter only 3% of appeals against late filing penalties were accepted and in another (mind the gap) 99% were accepted.

On another request HMRC refused to release the total of NRCGT late filing penalties they had levied. It became even more absurd when the statistics that had been denied were published by somebody else i.e. the excuse HMRC had provided to me for not releasing the statistics was clearly untrue. Respected punter Lambs appeared to agree.

Now if I was in a football crowd they would be chanting...'it's happening again, it's happening again, the FOI office are a mendacious outfit of devious men' (possibly not a football crowd with the 'm' word which I've stolen from probably a Surrey based Harlequin supporter who added it to my vocabulary recently).

My latest encounter with the FOI people asked them to confirm the number of 2022/23 self-assessment tax returns filed by 31 January 2024 that HMRC had not processed by 30 April 2024. The correspondence flowed as follows (seemingly unlike 2022/23 tax return processing at HMRC):

How many 2022/23 self assessment tax returns filed by 31 January 2024 had not been
processed by HMRC at 30 April 2024.


The returns that are showing as received and yet to be processed have failed the on-line
processing procedure, we are unable to ascertain if the returns are valid returns without
looking at them individually. This would exceed the cost limit.



“Please just supply the number of unprocessed returns not processed in the reference
period. I'm not concerned about the valid bit”


Apologies that our previous response implied that we would be able to provide information if
we included invalid returns. We have not been able to identify a suitable report or data set
that would be able to provide this figure.


How convenient!

etf
Posts:1473
Joined:Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:25 pm

Re: NRCGT return

Postby etf » Tue Oct 22, 2024 1:10 pm

I googled to see whether anyone had published the amount of NRCGT penalties levied by HMRC and came across the following which suggests the application of the rules is as confused as it ever was:


By AdShawBPR
06th Dec 2023 09:40
I recently took on a client who didn't realise a CGT was due on the sale of a property. Solicitors never told her and when pressed they referred to their terms and conditions saying they don't give tax advice! She did receive a £100 penalty for a late CGT return but this was waived on appeal. From others I have seen, solicitors are not telling their clients about this.


Replying to AdShawBPR:

By Software Seeker
06th Dec 2023 12:34
What was the basis of the appeal, out of interest?


Replying to Software Seeker:

By AdShawBPR
06th Dec 2023 13:56
I just told HMRC how it all happened which is: The taxpayer (not a wealthy individual at all) has been filing her own straight forward tax returns without fail and on time for many years and she knew she would have to report a gain on the return. She wasn't a client of mine but I know her and she asked me about the CGT entries on her return. I pointed out that she should have completed a CGT Return which came as a complete surprise to her. We did that together very quickly after I pointed out the error. I relayed all that to HMRC and the fact that the solicitor had said absolutely nothing about this. I also told them it was a daft system!



Replying to AdShawBPR:

By Software Seeker
06th Dec 2023 14:19
Thanks. So it looks like (although obviously I could be completely wrong), as an unrepresented taxpayer, HMRC took the appeal to mean that there was ignorance of the law and allowed the appeal on that basis. Didn't think that was an acceptable excuse, but (like I say) I could be completely wrong as to why the appeal was accepted.



Replying to Software Seeker:

By AdShawBPR
06th Dec 2023 15:39
I agree it does go against the ignorance being no excuse thing but on the other hand there is no law that says a taxpayer must be represented by a professional so while they do then take it upon themselves to know the rules on tax, this is so arbitrary and it has nothing to do with the actual tax calcs themselves. By agreeing to cancel the penalty HMRC would seem to agree that it is reasonable for a taxpayer to have missed this. The flip side is perhaps HMRC are really agreeing it's an unreasonable process!


Should HMRC be going back and refunding all the penalties levied in identical circumstances?

etf
Posts:1473
Joined:Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:25 pm

Re: NRCGT return

Postby etf » Tue Oct 22, 2024 9:01 pm

Is this HMRC providing a map of the tunnel out of the Great Escape Camp?
Is this escape route available to everyone?


:o :o By birdman
11th Sep 2024 09:27
We recently took on a case where taxpayer had sold their former main residence (now renting); they let it before selling, and there was a small CGT liability, which hadn't been disclosed on their Return (prepared by the taxpayer) so HMRC sent a letter suggesting they might like to amend the Return, having picked up this omission.
In the HMRC letter it stated "It is now too late to submit a CGT on UK Property Return" - so we have no intention of doing so, as it would only attract a fine! Reckon we're covered.

etf
Posts:1473
Joined:Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:25 pm

Re: NRCGT return

Postby etf » Tue Oct 22, 2024 9:08 pm

Errrh...seemingly not......cluster of all clusters. In the lyrics of the 1980s hit for Orange juice....'Rip it up and start again'.


By tractorboy
13th Sep 2024 16:44
I appealed against a penalty for a client on almost identical grounds (we were not acting at the time he sold the property I must add).

HMRC rejected the appeal and I quote the relevant part of their letter below:

"You did not send your Capital Gains Tax property disposal return. Your agent told us that this is because you were not informed by your solicitors of the requirement to complete a Capital Gains tax Return and make payment for any tax due within 60 days of property sale completion.

We've looked at your appeal against the late filing penalty and the 6 month late filing penalty for sending your Capital Gains Tax return in late for the tax year ended 5 April 2023.

We do not agree that you have a reasonable excuse. This is because when you sell your property, it is reasonable to research what is expected of you regarding your tax obligations.

UK properties sold after 6 April 2020 have ben required to complete separate Capital Gains Tax returns, all the relevant information has been clearly publicized on Gov.uk website and links to new guidance that has been included in the notes that accompany the self assessment tax return.

It states the process, timelines and what penalties will be charged if the return is submitted late. It remains your statutory duty to make yourself familiar with the requirements and comply with the regulations."

This was the outcome I expected and in all honesty the appeal was a bit in hope rather then expectation.

etf
Posts:1473
Joined:Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:25 pm

Re: NRCGT return

Postby etf » Wed Nov 06, 2024 3:12 pm

Interesting comment below from somebody (now retired) who presided over some of the NRCGT late filing penalty cases. Will Sir Harra call for the long overdue review of these penalty situations before he retires? It is improbable that Taxpayers were treated fairly.....3% successful in one quarter and 99% in another quarter....there should have been a MIND the GAP warning. After all the Taxpayers Charter is at the centre of what HMRC do... :o mmmmm. RT references comments from an Accountingweb thread.


By richard thomas
14th Sep 2024 12:04
I was reading though the comments on this post with sadness and some incredulity that people who are supposed to know about tax could advise a client that in this situation they had little or no chance of a successful appeal. I was just about to get out my own trumpet to blow when I saw mul's post mentioning McGreevy.

Those who think ignorance of the law is no excuse need to read Perrin. The real point about conveyancing solicitors (and I agree with all the adverse comments: do the same solicitors not tell their purchasing clients about SDLT?) is that if by some fluke they tell the client about the 60-day rule, the defence of ignorance vanishes, but if they don't then it doesn't (and I've so held where relevant).

And in my view all daily penalties for NRCGT failures are invalid in the light of Donaldson.

And there is no law that says you can't file a 60-day return (as distinct from an amendment to it) after a s 8 return has been delivered, though HMRC's software may not cater for it. And assuming it's not a year late, filing it will stop penalties running.

FactChecker's response has obviated to a degree the need for me to eviscerate HMRC's response that is quoted.

etf
Posts:1473
Joined:Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:25 pm

Re: NRCGT return

Postby etf » Wed Dec 18, 2024 10:35 am

WASPI-HMRC's mal-administration blueprint for the non-publicity of NRCGT

etf
Posts:1473
Joined:Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:25 pm

Re: NRCGT return

Postby etf » Thu Feb 27, 2025 5:01 pm

You said:
Did HMRC apply NRCGT penalties fairly?

ChatGPT said:
The fairness of HMRC's application of penalties for the Non-Resident Capital Gains Tax (NRCGT) is a topic that has been debated, particularly around the issue of compliance and the enforcement of regulations. NRCGT, introduced in 2015, applies to the sale of UK residential property by non-residents, with the intention to capture capital gains tax from those outside the UK benefiting from property sales.

HMRC has applied penalties to taxpayers who fail to comply with NRCGT filing requirements, such as not submitting a return within the set deadlines or failing to pay the tax owed. The penalty system has multiple levels, ranging from fixed penalties for late returns to higher penalties if the tax owed is not paid on time.

Concerns about fairness in NRCGT penalties have included:

Lack of Awareness: Many non-residents were initially unaware of the NRCGT requirements, especially if they had already been outside the UK for some time. In the early stages of the implementation of the NRCGT, this led to confusion, and taxpayers were penalized for not meeting deadlines they didn't know about.

Complexity of the Rules: The rules surrounding NRCGT and its reporting can be complex, especially for non-residents who might not be familiar with the UK tax system. Some felt that HMRC’s enforcement of penalties was too strict given the complexity involved in understanding what needed to be reported and when.

Penalties for Late Filing or Payment: There are strict penalties for late filings or late payments, even if the taxpayer eventually complied or paid the tax owed in full. These penalties can be viewed as disproportionate, particularly in cases where there was no intent to evade tax and the individual had no prior knowledge of the requirements.

Reasonable Excuse: HMRC has some flexibility in applying penalties if the taxpayer can demonstrate a "reasonable excuse" for the delay or failure to comply. However, there have been complaints that HMRC's interpretation of what constitutes a reasonable excuse may be overly rigid, especially for non-residents with limited UK tax knowledge.

Appeals Process: The appeals process exists for taxpayers who feel they’ve been unfairly penalized. However, some have argued that HMRC is not always forthcoming in its explanations for penalties, making it difficult for taxpayers to challenge them effectively.

Conclusion: In summary, while the penalties may have been necessary to enforce compliance and ensure the tax system’s integrity, the application of NRCGT penalties has raised concerns about fairness, especially given the complexity of the system, the potential for lack of awareness, and the strictness of the penalties. It’s important for HMRC to ensure clear communication, reasonable flexibility for genuine cases, and an accessible appeals process to maintain fairness.

Do you have any specific cases or details you'd like to discuss?


You said:
Why were 97% of NRCGT appeals dismissed in one quarter and only 1% in another quarter?

ChatGPT said:
The significant fluctuation in the success rates of NRCGT (Non-Resident Capital Gains Tax) appeals—where 97% of appeals were dismissed in one quarter, compared to only 1% in another—could be attributed to several factors, many of which relate to the specifics of each quarter, the nature of the appeals, and how HMRC handled them. While it's difficult to know exactly without more specific data, here are some potential reasons for such disparity:

1. Nature of the Cases:
Quarter with 97% Dismissal Rate: It's possible that in this quarter, the majority of the appeals were either poorly substantiated, lacked strong arguments, or were based on cases that did not meet the necessary legal or factual criteria for exemption from the penalties. This could suggest that HMRC received a large volume of appeals from taxpayers who didn’t have a valid "reasonable excuse" for missing deadlines or filing incorrectly, leading to a high dismissal rate.
Quarter with 1% Dismissal Rate: In contrast, the quarter with only 1% dismissals might have had a higher proportion of well-supported cases, where taxpayers were able to demonstrate valid reasons for late filing or non-compliance. This could include legitimate errors in the system, genuine misunderstandings, or cases where the penalties were seen as disproportionate.
2. Changes in HMRC's Approach or Guidance:
Policy Adjustments: HMRC may have updated its guidelines or had an internal policy shift regarding how appeals are assessed. In the quarter with a 1% dismissal rate, it’s possible that HMRC was more lenient or more inclined to consider “reasonable excuses” or mitigating circumstances, especially if it had clarified the rules for non-residents more effectively.
Communication and Education: If HMRC had made efforts to educate taxpayers more thoroughly in one quarter, this could lead to fewer penalties being appealed in the first place, or more successful appeals. On the other hand, the higher dismissal rate in the other quarter might have been due to confusion or lack of clarity surrounding NRCGT reporting requirements.
3. Volume of Appeals:
Large Volume of Cases: During a quarter with 97% dismissal, there may have been a sudden surge in appeals from taxpayers who failed to comply with NRCGT deadlines. Given the complexity of the rules, many of these taxpayers might have had weak or inadequate grounds for contesting the penalties. In a quarter with only 1% dismissed, there might have been fewer appeals overall, or they could have been from more informed or better-prepared taxpayers, which could explain the lower dismissal rate.
4. Specific Legal or Procedural Factors:
Reasonable Excuse: In tax appeal cases, a key factor is whether the taxpayer has a "reasonable excuse" for failing to comply with the rules. If there was a shift in the understanding or interpretation of what constitutes a reasonable excuse in the second quarter (e.g., perhaps the taxpayer had mitigating circumstances like a medical emergency, or they were genuinely confused about the rules), then more appeals might have been successful.

Appeals Process Changes: Changes to the appeals process itself (e.g., more thorough scrutiny of appeals, or a shift in focus toward ensuring fairness) could have influenced the outcomes. HMRC could have altered how it handled these appeals, either by applying a stricter or more lenient standard in different periods.

5. External Factors:
Economic or Global Events: Broader global or national events, such as changes in the economy, public health crises (e.g., the COVID-19 pandemic), or even shifts in government policy could have impacted taxpayers' ability to comply with deadlines, leading to more successful appeals in some quarters.

Case Law or Precedents: Legal decisions or guidance that were made available in between quarters could have affected the interpretation of NRCGT regulations, making it more likely for some taxpayers to win their appeals.

6. HMRC's Backlog or Resource Allocation:
Internal Workload: HMRC may have experienced a backlog of cases or changed its staffing and resources between quarters. This could result in more rigorous or more lenient assessments based on how well the department was equipped to handle appeals at any given time.
Summary:
The stark difference in the appeal success rates likely reflects a combination of the quality of the appeals themselves, the clarity of the rules, and the internal procedures within HMRC during those specific quarters. It's possible that during one quarter, the majority of appeals were seen as unjustified, while in another, HMRC may have adopted a more lenient or understanding stance. Furthermore, factors such as changes in HMRC's approach, the volume of cases, and the specific legal circumstances surrounding each quarter all play a role.

If you're looking at specific data or individual cases, it could offer further insights into why one quarter saw a 97% dismissal rate and another only 1%.

etf
Posts:1473
Joined:Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:25 pm

Re: NRCGT return

Postby etf » Tue Mar 11, 2025 8:29 am

BONKERS!

Rumour circulating that the person responsible for implementing NRCGT penalties moved to the Home Office and was behind the £1,500 fine handed out to the Essex couple who had a migrant hide in their bike rack...all the hallmarks of zero common sense.

Waiting for Sir Kier to request that Trump handover US mineral rights for the damage caused off Hull.

etf
Posts:1473
Joined:Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:25 pm

Re: NRCGT return

Postby etf » Tue Mar 11, 2025 12:58 pm

Keir not Kier...2nd time I've got that wrong.

etf
Posts:1473
Joined:Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:25 pm

Re: NRCGT return

Postby etf » Thu Mar 13, 2025 9:07 am

Sir Jim Harra As these two know, I have banged on about trust the whole time I have been chief executive. It has to be at the centre of everything that we do, because the UK’s tax system depends on people voluntarily complying and having confidence in HMRC, so that, when they receive something from us, they trust that it is right and do not need to contact us or query it. It has to be central to what we do, and that covers both the quality of the processes and communications that we give people, as well as the quality of the service when they have to deal with us.

If those listening had enquired why there has been no review of the unfairness of the application of NRCGT penalties by HMRC that might have caused Sir Jim embarrassment......there is a cohort of taxpayers who know Jim's statement above is utter bull-shit. Not the first time he has spouted this nonsense.


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