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Where Taxpayers and Advisers Meet

No NI contributions paid........

Andrew86
Posts: 3
Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2018 12:54 pm

No NI contributions paid........

Postby Andrew86 » Sun Nov 25, 2018 1:04 pm

So, I've been working for this company for 3 years and 8 months, and I found out back in April after doing a check, that my boss hasn't paid any NI Contributions since I started working for him, BUT he has been deducting the money from my pay each month.

I have a full record of my payslips since I started working with him. I brought this up with him in April and he was visibly terrified/shaken when speaking to me and said he couldn't understand how this had happened and he would get it sorted. Truth be told, I'm don't really believe him but I have NEVER been in a situation where my boss has been standing in front of me and is visibly terrified, can't look me in the eye and is almost stumbling over what to say.

I quietly checked in with a colleague of mine who started working with the company one month after me. He checked his own NI contributions and had a similar gap up to now when he started working for the same company. The other 2 employees who are long term, 10 years plus with this company, I haven't asked them.

Now, I spoke with my boss about this on Thursday and asked for proof that he had made the payments. He wasn't in the office, but said we would discuss it next week to get everything sorted, so I am surmising from his response that he STILL hasn't got it sorted.

My main concern is that if he hasn't been paying my NI contributions......has he been paying my tax that he has deducted too.

My question is, where do I stand on this from a liability point? All my payslips show that my NI and tax has been getting deducted every month, but am will HMRC still see me as being liable for the tax if it hasn't been paid, despite the fact all my payslips show that it has been??

robbob
Posts: 2827
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2008 4:01 pm

Re: No NI contributions paid........

Postby robbob » Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:54 pm

The payment on NI contributions by your employer is completely a non issue and should not be brought into any discussions that are had - that's completely non of your business being frank.
my boss hasn't paid any NI Contributions since I started working for him, BUT he has been deducting the money from my pay each month.
What is an issue is if he has not been submitting your payslip totals to hmrc (to document your contributions and what he owes) this could very possibly be the case and is the issue that needs to be resolved.

Personally my recommendation would be to broach the subject directly with hmrc if your boss is being at all evasive, it's an issue between them and him and i would be 99% certain this will be resolved in your favour - the only fly in the ointment would be if your boss suddenly vanished you may have to provide reasonable evidence to hmrc.

Note there would be no presumption in my mind that you boss has done anything wrong simply due to the figures not appearing on hmrc's computers - hmrc aren't exactly a reliable source of anything - albeit they like to pretend their systems are pretty good - they are not and the lack of anything means nothing until a full investigation has been done. I would complain directly to them that the info isn't showing up and that you want that investigated asap - the ball is 100% in their court as to how the proceed in that regard.

If you boss isn't shifty they should be able to confirm details of RTI submissions made - its a fact they have been submitted or not - if you are asking him ask him to provide confirmation of RTI submissions - although personally i would solve via the hmrc route.
My question is, where do I stand on this from a liability point? All my payslips show that my NI and tax has been getting deducted every month, but am will HMRC still see me as being liable for the tax if it hasn't been paid, despite the fact all my payslips show that it has been??
I wouldn't worry - the fact that you will be highlighting the issue to hmrc (if it needs to be) and as long as you have reasonable proof everything will be sorted - historical payslips and matching payments via bank each pay period is about as good a proof as you can hope for.

Hopefully this is just hmrc being it's normal hopeless self - it is very poor form if hmrc have presumed that if the figures don't show up on their system from an initial phonecall or online check then the figures aren't in their possession. My presumption would be they have the info unless the employer can't substantiate this fact. Note i am not saying he has submitted everything to hmrc - it may be the case he hasnt - but its better to start with the presumption this may be a simple processing error rather than something more serious.

Andrew86
Posts: 3
Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2018 12:54 pm

Re: No NI contributions paid........

Postby Andrew86 » Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:44 pm

I disagree with your statement here:

"The payment on NI contributions by your employer is completely a non issue and should not be brought into any discussions that are had - that's completely non of your business being frank."

Employer's are required by law to pay NI Contributions, and the fact he has deducted the money from my salary, and seemingly NOT paid it means he is infact committing fraud. He is breaking the law! I discussed it with him this morning, and although we are getting it resolved, his attitude sends out very clear signals that he know's he messed up. If it was a simple mistake, he wouldn't be terrified the way it is, and wouldn't be wanting ME to pay it voluntarily to try and keep the spotlight from him.

I'll be watching in future.

AdamS93
Posts: 233
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2017 6:28 pm

Re: No NI contributions paid........

Postby AdamS93 » Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:11 pm

I disagree with your statement here:

"The payment on NI contributions by your employer is completely a non issue and should not be brought into any discussions that are had - that's completely non of your business being frank."

Employer's are required by law to pay NI Contributions, and the fact he has deducted the money from my salary, and seemingly NOT paid it means he is infact committing fraud. He is breaking the law! I discussed it with him this morning, and although we are getting it resolved, his attitude sends out very clear signals that he know's he messed up. If it was a simple mistake, he wouldn't be terrified the way it is, and wouldn't be wanting ME to pay it voluntarily to try and keep the spotlight from him.

I'll be watching in future.
I agree.

If he has submitted everything correctly and just not paid the PAYE, then it wouldn't be fraud, he would just have a massive debt to the PAYE office and you will still have a full NI record. As you do not have an NI record, it seems most probably that he has processed your payslips but not submitted them to HMRC which is most definitely fraudulent.

The fact that he has done this, I would also check your employer pension scheme under auto-enrollment... He has probably done the same.

Your first port of call would be to allow your employer to put this right. If he fails to do so, then I would file a suspicious activity report (SAR) and call HMRC at the very least - probably worth getting some legal advice.

You and the taxpayer are the big loser here, your employer has defrauded his employees by the sounds of it. Maybe worth you and your colleagues joining a trade union!

robbob
Posts: 2827
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2008 4:01 pm

Re: No NI contributions paid........

Postby robbob » Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:55 pm

"The payment on NI contributions by your employer is completely a non issue and should not be brought into any discussions that are had - that's completely non of your business being frank."
The point i was making here is that it is non of your business and is therefore
a non issue for you in that regard
. whether he pays his paye is completely between him and hmrc - and i wouldn't recommend you getting involved in that regard - as long as the correct submissions due are "made and processed correctly" hmrc will then be well aware he owes the money and if he makes submissions late he will have appropriate issues of his own in that regard. The only thing that matters for you is getting the submissions processed onto your NI record and again for clarity that will have nothing to do with whether he has or will pay the sums due or not.

Andrew86
Posts: 3
Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2018 12:54 pm

Re: No NI contributions paid........

Postby Andrew86 » Mon Nov 26, 2018 4:28 pm

"The payment on NI contributions by your employer is completely a non issue and should not be brought into any discussions that are had - that's completely non of your business being frank."
The point i was making here is that it is non of your business and is therefore
a non issue for you in that regard
. whether he pays his paye is completely between him and hmrc - and i wouldn't recommend you getting involved in that regard - as long as the correct submissions due are "made and processed correctly" hmrc will then be well aware he owes the money and if he makes submissions late he will have appropriate issues of his own in that regard. The only thing that matters for you is getting the submissions processed onto your NI record and again for clarity that will have nothing to do with whether he has or will pay the sums due or not.
It is entirely my business! Non-payment of NI contributions have a detrimental effect on the size of an individual's state pension when it comes to retirement age! If I hadn't noticed this and it had gone on long enough, it would be too late after a 6 year gap for me to make up the shortfall because they don't then allow you to pay up the difference! What if he folds up the business and puts everyone out of work? Its too late to get it from him then!

Him taking the money from my salary, and not paying it to HMRC when it can effect my state pension later on is entirely my business, and his non-payment AFTER having deducted it is illegal. I have a right to challenge him over non-payment, and given his terrified attitude......its clear this has been deliberate and has not been a mistake!

robbob
Posts: 2827
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2008 4:01 pm

Re: No NI contributions paid........

Postby robbob » Mon Nov 26, 2018 4:51 pm

It is entirely my business! Non-payment of NI contributions have a detrimental effect on the size of an individual's state pension when it comes to retirement age! If I hadn't noticed this and it had gone on long enough, it would be too late after a 6 year gap for me to make up the shortfall because they don't then allow you to pay up the difference! What if he folds up the business and puts everyone out of work? Its too late to get it from him then!
As i have advised previously non payment of NI contributions will not affect your NI contributions as an employee. NI contributions for employees are based on RTI payroll submissions made and have nothing to do with whether the payments have been made by the employer or not. If you have any doubts in this regard contact hmrc and they should confirm the fact that as long as the payroll has been run and submitted (this is what needs fixing if it is broke) then you will be safe in the knowledge that your contributions are recorded whether the employer pays what is owed or not.

This being the case whether he has paid or not is non of your business - what is your business is whether the RTI information has been submitted detailing what your wages are.

bd6759
Posts: 3106
Joined: Sat Feb 01, 2014 3:26 pm

Re: No NI contributions paid........

Postby bd6759 » Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:21 pm

Robbob … You are overlooking the fact there is a gap in his NI contributions. That means not only is the employer not paying PAYE to HMRC, he is also not making the correct RTI reports, and previously has not submitted P35/P14. That is clearly an issue for the employee to pursue with HMRC.

robbob
Posts: 2827
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2008 4:01 pm

Re: No NI contributions paid........

Postby robbob » Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:34 pm

bd that’s what I was saying in the first post - it’s the rti submissions that need sorting. - the op seems more pre-occupied with the fact the employer hasn’t paid the paye - I was simply pointing whether the paye has been paid or not paid by his employer is of no relevance to the op - once the rti filings are filed up to date the op’s problem goes away even if the employer doesn’t pay a penny of the tax/NI.

It’s comlicated enough trying to sort out the issues of why the rti hasnt been filed without worrying about something that has no relevance.

D&C
Posts: 61
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2016 10:04 pm

Re: No NI contributions paid........

Postby D&C » Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:48 pm

Robbon is correct, payment of the NI is not the real problem here it is the employer not submitting details of the payments to the employee to HMRC under the Real Time Information system which is the issue.

And I'm at a loss as to what relevance P35's and P14's have here. The op states they have worked for the company for 3 years 8 months so presuambly they started in the 2014:15 tax year. The year after P35's and P14's were replaced by RTI.


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